Marie Favereau is a French historian and writer. Her 2021 book, The Horde: How the Mongols Changed the World, was published to critical acclaim, being nominated for the Cundill Prize, the Prose Award in World History by the Association of American Publishers, and listed as a notable book of the year by several publications. Currently, she’s the director of the French Institute for Central Asian Studies based in Bishkek.
In this video interview for the Abai Center, Marie Favereau talks about the Golden Horde’s evolution from Genghis Khan’s son Jochi’s Ulus into an independent, powerful, and diverse regime ruling Eurasia for almost three centuries. The Qazaq Khanate, or Ulus of the Kazakhs, succeeded the Golden Horde and is crucial to Kazakhstan’s history.
See the Youtube video.
How did you start your research?
So, I had never heard of the Golden Horde, the Mongol Empire, the Jochids, or any of these topics in French universities. I discovered them purely by chance when I was at the University of Sorbonne, where I had a professor from Czechoslovakia. He knew about the Golden Horde and considered this topic very important. It was part of world history, and he started talking to us about it, which completely opened up a new field for me. I became very interested and chose this topic for my Master’s degree. I approached him and said, “I want to work on the Golden Horde.” He replied, “Well, it’s going to be really hard because there are no sources in France, and the whole literature is in Russian. It’s going to be really difficult for you. Do you still want to do it?” I said, “Yes. I want to do it even more.” I was truly excited by the topic. I went to the library, dug into old Soviet publications, and learned about something called the “Tatar Mongol yoke.” This approach was very negative, but I had a different vision: “It’s a big empire, it’s a significant state, there’s something major going on. So it’s not just simple domination.” I wanted to know more about that.
At the same time, I was interested in learning about the Islamization of Central Asia: the Arabic conquest, and the Abbasid period, but it was clear that something significant was occurring during the Mongol era. From the 13th century onward, it was a crucial period for Islam. That also picked up my interest. I was learning Arabic, so I wanted to read some sources from that time. My PhD focused on the 15th-century Golden Horde, a late period for the Golden Horde and early Kazakh history. My interest was centered on the problem of archives. My question as a PhD student was: “I’m sure there were written archives, letters, and administrative documents that were lost, and those documents could prove that the Golden Horde, the Jochi State, was a highly elaborated and sophisticated state, just like any other empire.” I was deeply interested in this question.
I started looking for documents and received scholarships that allowed me to travel. I went to Vienna, where there are wonderful archives connected to Ottoman history and the Ottoman Empire, which contain documents from the Golden Horde period. Then I traveled to Istanbul, Russia, Kazakhstan, and other countries, gathering materials and written records that would eventually help me write the book I wanted about the Golden Horde.
What is the main argument of your book?
The main argument for me is in the subtitle – “How the Mongols Changed the World,” as I really wanted to show that this was a real empire. It was very powerful but also created so many changes that changed the history and narrative of the era and even beyond. For me, it was clear that this was not a local history. Historians working on medieval Central Asia sometimes suffered from being a little outcast from world history. People used to think that “this is very specific. It’s nomadic culture, it’s nomadic history. It’s not as important and as big as the Roman Empire or Great Britain.” And I wanted to show because this is what I was seeing in my sources, that the Golden Horde changed so many things; there is a before the Golden Horde and after the Golden Horde, and the world after it is not the same.
Was the Golden Horde a State? The Kazakh state draws its early history from the Jochi State and later the Golden Horde, whose state traditions and governance were inherited by the Qazaq Khanate. Hence, we have a great interest in the Mongol Empire, which is seen as an initiator of some important state traditions for the nomadic confederations. What do you think about this lineage?
To put it very simply, yes, if we think of a state as a sophisticated form of social organization that provides real power, not only over the people who are inside but also is capable of projecting power outside and talking as a diplomatic agent to other kingdoms or other forms of organization, and is able to have a voice and also to build up things and to support complex forms of trade… then all of this is in the Golden Horde. That is clear, that is sure there is no question about that.
Now, how much in the Qazaq Khanate comes from the Golden Horde is even another question, but I think we cannot deny that there is a link. The heritage and legacy is obvious. In terms of territories, when you look at where the Golden Horde was, how it was stretched over a great part of Kazakhstan, over a great part of Russia as well as over part of Eastern Europe, we cannot deny their territorial legacies and that some people lived there and created local dynasties. And generation after generation, some people stayed, and some people left. So my point is it’s a shared legacy. The Golden Horde is certainly not only Kazakhstan because when you look at it, the territories are bigger and a bit different too, but Kazakhstan is clearly connected to the Horde, it’s obvious. So even in terms of monuments, permanent structures that were built and left by the Jochids. If archaeologists work in Kazakhstan and dig into the earth, they will find burials from Jochid’s time, right? So the connection, we cannot deny it. It’s there. It’s really great that Kazakh historians today look into Ulus Jochi’s times. It’s very important.
What do you think about the Horde’s governance, particularly their patronage of trade and free movement? We can see the same movement in the modern Central Asian states that want to capitalize on transit.
Trade is a strong legacy from the Golden Horde’s times, and the nomadic energy is in its mobility, ability to be super creative, and to offer new ideas, to connect better, to exchange better. What I found really fascinating about the Golden Horde’s era is what we call Pax Mongolica, these moments of exchange in the 13th and 14th centuries, which can truly be considered a time of globalization. It’s a pre-modern era but already showcases elements of globalization. On one hand, there is the idea of controlling trade to some extent, as free markets did not exist at that time. However, they really sought to support exchange, and it’s intriguing to see how they built tools for that: a passport system to facilitate travel, minimal taxes for traders, and protection for caravans on the roads.
Traders were protected in certain areas of the steppe when coming from foreign countries, and foreign trade was offered good prices. This security and predictability were essential for traders to know how much profit they could make.
The notion of the Silk Road is well-known, but I think Pax Mongolica is even more interesting and significant in many ways. Pax Mongolica covered a larger area and represented a real period of globalization. Of course, systems like postal and supply networks existed in Central Asia before this time, but the Horde expanded these systems significantly. The concept of Central Asia as a crossroads is very positive and highlights the potential of the region to help local communities through open frontiers and shared rules and understanding among its people.
Jochi died at an early age, and his Ulus expanded under his successors. How did the Ulus of Jochi establish itself as a separate empire from the rest of Genghis Khan’s lands?
The question of succession is key, of course, when you are studying the Mongol Empire and the history of the Golden Horde. My opinion as a historian, based on my reading of sources, is that probably in the beginning, Jochi was the heir of Genghis Khan. He was a designated heir of Genghis Khan because his father gave him so much; he gave him the north of the empire, the fur trade areas, with very important peoples living there, forest peoples. We tend to have a vision of the North that is negative in our modern days: “There is snow, it’s cold.” But I always talk to my students and say, “No. At that time, these regions were extremely productive trade regions, especially for the fur trade, but other types of trades also made people rich and strong.” So we shouldn’t definitely see these areas as being far away from the core of the empire.
These areas were very important for Genghis Khan, and he gave them to his eldest son. At some point in their life, something happened; they had some fight, and we think it happened during Central Asian campaigns. Maybe because Jochi had a fight with his brothers, especially Chagatai. Maybe he failed during the conquest of certain cities, especially Urgench. There are different explanations, but clearly, at some point, he left this close circle of Genghis Khan. He never wanted to go back to Mongolia; he stayed in Central Asia, although his father called him to come and show himself at the court in Mongolia. So something happened between them. But then, of course, the biggest thing is that he died before his father died, right? So he couldn’t have been the heir to the throne, anyway.
Now it’s clear that what was built during Jochi’s time was not a real kingdom. It was not an empire at that time; it was just part of the Mongol Empire. After Jochi died, and then under Batu (Jochi’s son) and his successors, something took shape that we now call the Golden Horde. This was something that came out of the Mongol Empire. And then, already at the end of Batu’s time, there was some independence, some form of an autonomous way of doing things. What I tried to explain in my book is how the Golden Horde became something per se. It developed its own diplomacy, its own rules, a lot of political decisions were taken by Jochid khans. When they elected a new khan, they would not ask members of Genghis Khan’s family who were coming from faraway areas to take part. They had their own rules, but they would still, until the very end, feel they were a part of the bigger Mongol Empire.
After the end of the 14th century, of course, we cannot speak about the Mongol Empire anymore. Yet, obviously, the Jochid Ulus still exists, and it’s very strong, and it has its own life.
What contributed to the decline of the Golden Horde?
We have different versions of how the decline started and how the Horde disappeared. The 14th century is a complex period, especially after the Black Death, a plague pandemic. In the second half of the 14th century, the Mongol Empire really declined in different areas. We know that at the end of the 14th century, the Jochids were very strong. They were still present, and there was still something that we can call a state or Ulus, if you prefer, in the territories of the Golden Horde. So my vision of it is that the 15th century needs to be taken into account when you work on the history of the Golden Horde. It’s a very interesting period. It’s very complex as well.
It’s fascinating to see how despite the end of other Chinggisid dynasties (the Yuan dynasty ended in what is now China, and the Ilkhanate dynasty ended in Iran), the Jochids stayed very strong and remained clear leaders in the great region of Central Asia. So I wanted to show not only how they survived the end of the Mongol Empire, but also how they even developed by being creative, how they also found a way to reinvent themselves.
I worked with colleagues on the concept of “shape-shifting” and I think it’s very convenient when you work on the late phase of the Golden Horde to use this concept. Pekka Hämäläinen, a professor at Oxford University I worked with, specializes in the Comanche Empire and Lakota Empire in North America. He developed this concept of shape-shifting, which is very specific to nomads. It describes how they are able, when faced with difficulties, to reinvent themselves politically, economically, and in many other ways.
And I thought that it was a great way to explain the Golden Horde in the 15th century. I was really keen to show how this state, dynasty, or people transforming into something else had connections with later periods, and obviously with the Qazaq Khanate. It was really important for me to understand and to show why people didn’t disconnect completely from the time of the Golden Horde. These connections should be understood as part of the “shape-shifting” process. The Ulus Jochi took another form: its centers and peripheries changed. The lower Volga at some point stopped being a political center. Clearly, by the early 16th century, it wasn’t a center anymore; yet, there was this powerful nomadic energy, and the Jochid dynasty remained.
Is there a phenomenon such as steppe democracy? Could we see the tradition of qazaqlyq or wandering off as a political vote?
Many people think that the khans were dictators, or they compare modern dictators with the rulers of the past, Jochid rulers, especially. I think it’s a complete mistake. When you look at the sources, you see how much collaboration and negotiation they had at that time. The khan is not alone. First of all, he has a wife, called khatun or khatan in Mongolian, who is very important as she also leads. She makes political decisions. She can receive ambassadors from foreign countries. She has her own traders. So, the khan is not alone. Also, of course, he has advisors but most importantly, he has to do politics with nomadic leaders. These leaders are called begs or noyons. Some are not directly connected by blood to the khan but are still nomadic nobility. Many are Turkish-speaking nomads. And the khan cannot do anything without them. First of all, he has been elected in a way which is not a simple succession system; there’s a lot of negotiation. It’s not because you are the son of the previous khan that you’re going to get the throne. You really have to convince the elite, the nomadic elite, that you are able, and you have contenders. So, I show in my book how much time succession can take, which I think is a healthy sign. Of course, it’s too much to name it a democracy. The system is different. But still, if you take time to decide who’s going to be the next leader, it means it’s not a dictatorship. It means there’s space for negotiation, there’s space for disagreement. And then at some point, you have to come to social consensus.
So, when we think about the concept of qazaqlyq and the fact that when you disagree, you can leave or wander off and build up your own state somewhere else as a new leader by gathering young men and troops around you. This also refers to the fact that to be a khan, you really have to convince, and you can also decide to create something new by moving to another territory. So, all this gives us an impression of a real political discussion and exchange.
How did the Mongols change the world?
A significant change during the Mongol Empire time, and especially during the Golden Horde time, really is the way people started to envision the world because they had much more connection than before. More specifically people start to make scientific maps of the world because Chinggisid leaders put a lot of money into science and into geographical knowledge. They wanted to know about their territories; they wanted to know about their subjects, the regions, and their neighbors, and they had a lot of questions for their scientists. These scientists were coming from Islamic Central Asia, Persia, and China and the Mongols asked them to collaborate and to put their knowledge together. They also asked their traders to contribute. The traders had practical knowledge because they traveled a lot, they spoke different languages, and they had a concrete experience of geography.
That’s how at that time the vision of the world the people had changed dramatically. Their knowledge of the physical world completely transformed. And this has been transmitted to Europe, already in the 14th century, then in the 15th century. We in Europe started to know more about Eurasia, about the world, about the expectations, options, and possibilities of economic development and growth through this new knowledge that the Chinggisids financially supported. Interestingly, this new understanding of the world is not so much influenced by religion. It’s a knowledge that is more grounded in science and in physical observations. It’s like a merchant would say, “Oh, I’ve seen this city. There are so many people living there, and you can find such and such products.” These are the questions that were asked at that time. It’s different from religious worldview and mythical cosmology (which remained important at that time for other reasons). Here it’s a different type of knowledge that we see growing. In that sense, this period shows a complete shift in the relationship we, human societies, have with Mother Earth.
